Pop, the Question (S4: E32)
Dystopian Science Fiction’s Past, Present, and Futures
Featured Guests Raja Schaar (Assistant Professor and Program Director, Product Design, Westphal College of Media Arts & Design, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Graphic Design Alex Hotchkiss
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded November 9, 2020 through virtual conferencing. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. Copyright © 2021 Drexel University
Episode Summary
Part of the allure of science fiction, fantasy, and dystopian fiction, whether in print or on screen, is the ability to conjure up possible worlds and concepts that don’t yet exist in reality. Novelists have done this for centuries, inspiring television and film adaptations to give rise to scientifically-based visions of what lies ahead. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis explores this genre of popular media with Drexel University product design professor, lifelong sci-fi and fantasy fiction enthusiast, and self-proclaimed “Doomsday optimist” Raja Schaar, unearthing the power of imagined stories to help make sense of (and potentially heal) a fractured society.
Transcript:
Opening Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky "Pop, the Question" theme music plays with audio clips, featuring Oprah Winfrey and "The Golden Girls."].
Theme Intro (Melinda Lewis):
Welcome to "Pop, the Question," a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Melinda Lewis:
So, I'm here today with Raja Schaar, Assistant Professor and Program Director of Product Design at Drexel University. Hey, Raja! [Theme music fades.]
Raja Schaar:
Hello, Melinda! How are you?
Melinda Lewis:
I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you about science fiction, fantasy, all that jazz.
Raja Schaar:
Me, too!
Melinda Lewis:
What...do you know what your route is when it comes to science fiction/fantasy? Do you remember being Little Raja and going, "Oh, hello! This is for me"?
Raja Schaar:
So, growing up, I loved...I still love TV, the commercials, all of it. But, no, growing up, we watched as much TV as we were allowed to. My parents...both of them had a deep love of sci-fi. My mom was a big "Star Trek" fan and my dad was really into all these different fantasy shows. "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" were definitely in there. But do you remember, back in the day, they would have these B movie style...? It would be like Sinbad the Sailor or Conan, Hercules.
Audio Clips:
["The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" audio clip plays. Sweeping theme music enters and then fades into another clip.]
Raja Schaar:
There would be some animal character that was larger than life that would be coming over rocks. And it was this jolty, stop-motion effect of a tiger reaching out to grab the guy.
Audio Clips:
["Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" audio clip plays. A tiger roars in a sword fight, while sweeping music continues in the background].
Raja Schaar:
Anyway, that was my Sunday afternoons, watching these B movies with my dad.
Melinda Lewis:
"Clash of the Titans"!
Raja Schaar:
Yeah! Like all of those.
Audio Clips:
["Clash of the Titans" audio clip montage plays. Zeuss commands, "Let loose the Kraken!" Water bubbles up and then the Kraken roars. Splashing and groans fade.]
Raja Schaar:
And it was just like, "Awww, this is amazing!" And then, "2001: A Space Odyssey." So, that was kind of like what I cut my teeth on. Any sci-fi movie that came out, we were allowed to go see in the theater. And, so, that kind of led to me exploring books in the sci-fi genre.
Melinda Lewis:
It seems to me like the things that you've brought about are the things that also kind of tie into product design: the creation of stuff and what these things could look like. So, I remember watching "Clash of the Titans" in 6th grade, because we were doing Greek mythology. So, it was like, "How do you translate this text into this visual imagery? And how do you make Medusa Medusa?"
Raja Schaar:
Yeah! It's like the world-building, right?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah!
Audio Clips:
["Clash of the Titans" audio clip plays. Medusa's rattle and raspy sound effects play with orchestral music in the background, before fading out.]
Raja Schaar:
Yeah and that's one of the things that I really was excited about when "Black Panther" came out and they won so many Academy Awards, was they're winning awards for the design and production. Like how do you really create a world that's convincing through hair, makeup, clothing, props, special effects, all those things together so that you actually become immersed in that world? And I do think it's really important people have imaginations and make things up on their own, but I love those visuals. And, also, once they're put out in the world, it's like, "Do you want the future to look like that?" I remember watching "Back to the Future," (the second one, where they flash forward to the future) and I was like, "You know, the inflatable shoe sounds pretty cool...the self-zipping shoes.
Audio Clips:
["Back to the Future Part II" audio clip plays. Orchestral marching music fades in with sound effects of power laces. Marty McFly says, "Power Laces! Alright!" Music and effects fade out.]
Raja Schaar:
So, it's interesting what gets proposed. But the other thing that I was...in terms of sci-fi...that also enamored me was this idea of: they are usually set in a world where either we've sort of happily hummed along, advancing in technology; society has come together and now we're just all working together to explore further. Or it's after the fallout of a major catastrophe and you have to rebuild the world. And what does the new world look like?
Melinda Lewis:
Maybe I think one of the differences is that sci-fi is all about potential and what is possible. Science fiction allows this realm of possibility to exist, where social structures are different; technology is different.
Raja Schaar:
I know, but I like both sides. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh! What led to this? How could we have prevented that from happening?" Or, "How do we respond to it? What does the world look like?" So, for me, there's a lot of things in there. So, it's like, "How is the society designed, too?" And, "What are we holding on to and designing around?" or "What are we adjusting and changing?"
Raja Schaar:
And, so, that's the other thing that I also like about sci-fi is, oftentimes, when you're growing up (especially in the '80s and '90s), there was an extreme lack of representation on screen that you probably don't even realize if you are starting to watch media today, because there is so much more available because we have shows from other countries where people are represented or the majority. So, growing up in the States, there was an extreme lack of representation. But, when it was there for Black people in sci-fi, it wasn't about them being Black. The tensions that were established in those stories had to do with something else. If they were talking about race, it was talking about literally species coming from one planet or another planet. But it was really interesting that, whenever you would see Black women in particular on screen, how they were handled.... So, "The Expanse" with Naomi Nagata, right now, is one of my favorite characters, just because I just think she's the smartest person in the room every single scene that she's in. But yet they still keep putting this White guy in charge. [Raja laughs.].
Audio Clips:
["The Expanse" audio clip plays. Pleasant orchestral music with strings fades in and masculine voice says, "How did someone as smart as you end up on the Canterbury?" Naomi Nagata replies, "I failed upwards to the level of my incompetence." Music continues in the background.]
Raja Schaar:
What are you doing?!?! Obviously, listen to the woman engineer, who clearly has been through a lot and knows everything.
Audio Clips:
[Additional audio clip from "The Expanse" plays. Masculine voice says, "It's not going to help either. You kill the power of the magnetic seal, the back-up in that locker is going to kick in and keep it shut." Naomi Nagata replies, "That's why I'm going to kill the power source first, so the back-up doesn't trigger." Masculine voice adds, "That's a good idea, but there's not enough time." Nagata closes with, "You underestimate my ability o break things." Clip ends.]
Raja Schaar:
Even looking at the way women are handled in general on a lot of sci-fi, they are put into these positions where they don't even acknowledge there was a previous oppression; it's just obvious that they should be there. Of course they should be the person in charge. Of course that person should be the president of the universe or this galaxy. Whereas, if you see things set in present day, you often have to complicate it with social constructs.
Melinda Lewis:
I was thinking, as you were talking, about Uhura from "Star Trek" and how people just listened to her, because she's the expert.
Raja Schaar:
Yeah!
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Audio Clips:
["Star Trek" audio clip plays. Spock inquires, "Progress report?" Uhura replies, "Another half hour." Spock says, "Speed is essential, Lieutenant." Uhura responds, "Mr. Spock, I haven't done anything like this in years. If it isn't done just right, I could blow the entire communication system. It's very delicate work, sir." Spock says, "I can think of no one better equipped to handle it, Ms. Uhura. Please proceed." Uhura says, "Yes, sir. Right away." Clip fades.]
Raja Schaar:
Nichelle Nichols' casting was so intentional at the moment when this show aired in the '60s. We're talking about in the midst of a civil rights movement with intentional plot lines. You had the first interracial cast. You have this woman who's in charge. And what she represented on screen impacted the career path of so many people who went into STEM fields after that, who identified as Black. Being able to see this, someone who was part of a team, but then the intentional choice to put her there, I think, has to do with just imag[ining]...that idea of like you were saying of imagining new possibilities of what a world could look like, if we were able to overcome some of the inherent inequities of society.
Melinda Lewis:
Can you think of a text where it isn't done well?
Raja Schaar:
Yeah! I'm thinking about some books that I have been referencing lately. One is "[The] Handmaid's Tale." When you look at it and how it's manifested, especially on screen, you really start to see there's some mismatches there.
Audio Clips:
["The Handmaid's Tale" clip plays. Aunt Lydia paces through a large room and says, "Mmm. Girls? I know this must feel very strange. But ordinary is just what you're used to. This may not seem ordinary to you right now. But, after a time, it will. This will become ordinary." Ominous synth and guitar music plays under Aunt Lydia and eventually fades out.]
Raja Schaar:
And what it does is it really positions people that are at the top and creates more of that divide between the haves and the have-nots and the power that's imbued in those people that are in the 1%, the commanders and their families and the elites. And they're so out of touch with what's happening with the rest of society. But even the rest of society is so afraid to live and breathe.
Raja Schaar:
And then the other one that I keep coming back to is "Parable of the Sower," the Octavia Butler book. And it's a two-part...two-parter. But the first one, "Parable of the Sower,"starts in the year 2024...
Melinda Lewis:
Uh, oh! [Melinda laughs.]
Raja Schaar:
...Which is, you know, tomorrow. [Both laugh.] And the world that it's in is...it's right after society starts to take a downward spiral. Drug use is on the rise. Disease and pandemics have not been controlled. Inflation is out of control. You have corporations that are taking over and climate change is out of control, which is leading to fires. There is a politician that's elected in this story: something "Don." But the people are trying to figure out who they're going to vote for...who they're going to vote for. They vote for this person who is all about preserving that 1%, rather than focusing on society. You have rampant police violence.
Raja Schaar:
And it's this story at the edge of when people are trying to survive in this state. And then what is a sort of a fueling thing for the protagonist of the story (who happens to be a Black woman) is this idea of looking to space, looking to the stars, looking at this idea of, one day, escaping the realities of their planet to go somewhere else. And I often worry: when do we get to a point where that's the only escape?
Audio Clips:
["Theme from 'Star Trek'" audio clip plays. Music fades in, Nichelle Nicholes vocalizes the main show theme, and then the music fades out.].
Promo Segment (Speaker 1):
[Phone rings and voicemail message begins.] Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? You know, like, if I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Promo Segment (Melinda Lewis):
[Tape whirling effect, followed by "Pop, the Question" instrumental theme music and Melinda Lewis.] 'Sup, Mom! Uh, yeah. So you can find us on all those things, actually: Twitter; Instagram; Facebook. Just go to "popquestpod" on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at "popqpodcast" or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. Alright, love you. Bye! [Promo segment theme music concludes with "Scooby-doo-bop!"].
Audio Clips:
["Avatar" audio clip plays. Sweeping theme music fades in with ethereal vocals and then continues in the background.]
Raja Schaar:
When I saw "Avatar" for the first time, it was like, "What?!?!" Everything about the planet was designed around this idea of connectivity, around harmony.
Audio Clips:
[Additional "Avatar" audio clip plays. Masculine voice narrates over running stream water and tranquil music, "Every day, it's reading the trails, the tracks of the water hole...tiny sights and sounds." Music continues and then fades out.]
Raja Schaar:
But it was so vividly presented. I remember just feeling really small, because I was able to sort of suspend reality and really be in a completely different world. So, even as a designer, I feel like that's what I try to get my students...to push them towards is the speculating about realities that we really have not imagined at all, but it's a real stretch of the mind to get there.
Melinda Lewis:
Because you both have to see what's not there. And that's kind of the magic of thinking that I think is so particularly special about product design and science and STEM of just being the "what-if game," but with things that don't exist yet until you articulate it or actually make it into the world.
Raja Schaar:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah and I think it reminded me...and I think something you had said before reminded me of what I was so impressed by "Black Panther" as what it was inserting into the Marvel Universe, which was past, present, and future. And thinking about how we got there and acknowledging the work of the Black Panther Party, of Killmonger kind of being right about a lot of stuff [Melinda laughs], and the implications of sharing technology. And what that...what happens when we do share technology and it gets colonized and weaponized?
Raja Schaar:
Or what happens when we don't, too?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Raja Schaar:
We know that, when we...when there is a group of people who has been oppressed, their liberation has to be the work of everyone, if it's actually to succeed. And if there are people in positions of power who don't use that power or divest, because they don't see it as their problem, then you end up in a world like we have today. When we're talking about the Black Lives Matter movement specifically, this has been ongoing for...since Africans were enslaved and put on ships and we have maintained these systems of oppression, as much as we've been able to. And there've been tons of calls for this liberation: you have the emancipation of slaves; you have the civil rights movement and the '60s; you have our current-day civil rights movement. And, until people who are in power are willing to invest in equity and divest from power, you can't do that. And, so, even in a world like Wakanda, you have a society that's been able to live and thrive on its own resources. And it really shows not only this picture of Black people thriving (the radical Black imagination), but what happens when a society stays insular and protects itself and does not share in that success?
Audio Clips:
["Black Panther" audio clip plays. Okoye says to W'Kabi, "This is what you would have me leave the Dora for? To bring our children into this world, where they become conquerers?" W'Kabi quietly replies, "Yes. Our children will be leaders of a truly free world, not just a tiny country where we have to hide everything that makes us great. And Wakanda will stand tall." Clip ends.]
Raja Schaar:
But, at the same time, it's such a beautifully told story about what actually is possible...what liberation could really be like. What were to happen if we could wake up tomorrow and people could just go about their business and do what they want to do and just be great makers, be great designers, be great technologists, be great leaders?
Melinda Lewis:
This idea of resistance is not really well-represented at all. And, when it is, it's very like, "This is bad! This is good!" But opening up the potential to talk about resistance is necessary to a functioning society and a developing understanding of people.
Raja Schaar:
2020 is the year where I realized that money rules everything, power rules everything, and nobody cares about humanity really. [Raja laughs.] And that's how you get to apocalypse. [Melinda laughs.] That's how you end up in "Mad Max." That's how you end up in "Waterworld." People don't read books or watch shows or they don't believe them. Because science fiction, even though it is fiction, they read like cautionary tales of like, "If you keep doing this, bad things could happen." [Melinda laughs.]. So, I think we're at an inflection point in the world. I'm hoping that something good and positive will result from all of this. But, at the same time, if it doesn't, I won't be surprised. [Melinda laughs.] And I have read enough survival manuals that I feel fairly confident that I will be okay. [Melinda laughs.].
Raja Schaar:
I remember...do you remember "The Worst-Case Survival Scenario Handbook" that came out in like 2000 or '99?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah!
Raja Schaar:
I taught a summer camp based on that book. I have always been about the end of the world. [Both laugh.]
Audio Clips:
["The Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook" book trailer audio clip plays with strong orchestral music in the background. Narrator fervently states, "Now, when we need it more than ever! With all new, up-to-date content and dozens of brand-new 21st Century scenarios! Because it's still a dangerous world out there and you just never know! Be prepared." Strong orchestral music continues.
Raja Schaar:
I'm ready for it!
Audio Clips:
["The Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook" book trailer audio clip continues. Narrator states, "Don't panic!"]
Raja Schaar:
I'm a doomsday optimist.
Audio Clips:
["The Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook" book trailer audio clip continues. Narrator states, "Have a plan." Music fades comes to a dramatic end.]
Raja Schaar:
Or it cannot happen. [Melinda laughs.] It would be great if we could get off the edge of the cliff and come back. The minute COVID was sort of announced as this thing, I was like, "This is it!" [Both laugh.] "I knew it was...I knew it! We've had all this time to figure this out! We've been watching 'The Twilight Zone.' We've been watching all these things. We've had movies called 'Pandemic.' We have all these movies about the end of the world. We know how this plays out. 'Hunger Games'? Come on, you guys!"
Audio Clips:
["The Hunger Games" audio clip plays. Woody Harrelson's character says to Katniss, "You really want to know how to stay alive? You get people to like you. Oh! Not what you were expecting." Background, melancholy synth music fades out.]
Melinda Lewis:
And I think you've presented a really great argument for why making time for fiction is so important, because it really does get you thinking about imaginary worlds; the ways that we build those worlds; the way that we interact with those worlds / engage with those worlds; and how that can stimulate our ideas about the potential future and our place within that potential future.
Raja Schaar:
It's really important that I keep up with the stories, the imagined stories, of possible futures.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I mean, it's your job.
Raja Schaar:
Thank you! I think so. Our interactions with media and music and culture have really shaped who we are. And I really don't want my students to leave that aside when they enter a space. And I think that's what we need to just keep in mind is like, "How do we prevent dystopia from happening, so that we can move towards this idea of a utopia or even just an 'okay'? [Both laugh.] Where we live in a world where everyone is 'okay'." [Both laugh.]
Melinda Lewis:
I think that's a perfect summation.
Raja Schaar:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
Thank you so much. That's awesome.
Raja Schaar:
Yeah. Alright, cool.
Closing Theme Music:
[Upbeat, funky theme music plays.].
Theme Outro (Melinda Lewis):
"Pop, the Question" was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Eric Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. [Theme music continues with "Pop, the Question!" vocals and a Wilhelm scream].
Closing Theme Music (Speaker 1):
["Pop, the Question" theme music continues with Allen Iverson's speaking at a press conference.] I know it's important. I do; I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What're we talking about? Practice?! We talking about practice, man. [Theme music fades out.]