Pop, the Question
S7-E53
“Into the Sneaker-Verse”
Episode Summary
Footwear plays an important role in defining a video-game character’s persona and capability. Such is the case with games like Bomb Rush Cyperfunk, Sonic Riders, Mario Wonder, Spider-Man, and 2K basketball installments. For gamer/designer Derrick Banks, Jr.—a Drexel University undergraduate, former STAR Scholar, and Sneaker Lab researcher—sneaker design is critical to how players perceive a character and enjoy the game. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis joins Banks to step into the complexity of footwear, 3-D modeling, and the overarching power of video games and the Spider-Verse.
Featured Guest Derrick Banks, Jr. (Undergraduate Student, Game Design & Production, Westphal College of Media Arts & Design, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Director of Strategy)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine and Sadie Subedi
Social Media Outreach Ka’Neisha Davis
Graphic Design Estelle Guillot
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Original Artwork and Music Derrick Banks, Jr.
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded October 26, 2023 in 155 Bentley Hall, Pennoni Honors College, Drexel University. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of Drexel University or Pennoni Honors College.
To learn more about the work of Derrick Banks, Jr., visit youtube.com/@S4MUR0TTS_FL0W.
Copyright © 2024 Drexel University
TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1:
Whatever. It's all the same thing. We're all artists, we're all misunderstood.
Melinda Lewis:
Welcome to Pop, the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Hello. I'm here with Derrick Banks, Jr. He's a game and interactive media design student, a former STAR scholar and a student ambassador here at Drexel University, and we're talking about sneakers and video games, and sneakers and games. Derrick, are you ready?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Yes. Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited to be here.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm so excited.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Let's get started.
Melinda Lewis:
Hit the start button.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Beep.
Melinda Lewis:
Beep. What was the first video game?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I think my first video game had to have been like three or four, and my dad had his old NES in the basement, so we'd go down there and play Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt as well. We played Double Dragon all the time and stuff like that, and then we got a Wii when I was in preschool. So I was like, "This is amazing." And that was my first gaming experience for myself. I played Wii Sports a ton, and then I got my very first console that belonged to me, my Nintendo DS. And my first game on that was Kung Zhu. It was like this little hamster game where they were like samurai and ninjas.
Melinda Lewis:
I really missed out on a lot.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
It's one of my favorite games of all time.
My first game that I consider my favorite game is Pokemon Black. I was in third grade for Christmas when I got that game, and to this day it probably still is my favorite game of all time. And people ask me, "What's your favorite game?" I'm like, "That's a hard question," but I'm going to tell you Pokemon Black, because Pokemon Black is what got me into video games, really. That's what cemented my spot in gaming.
The characters, the music, the story, all of those things were encapsulated together to make this beautiful package of a game that for me, I was able to fully realize and see like, "Wow, this is an amazing game." And even 10 years later, after playing that game for the first time, the way the story narrative was built up through that whole story and the gameplay was just amazing.
Melinda Lewis:
During the pandemic I played and beat Cuphead.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Really?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Congratulations. That is a very difficult game.
Melinda Lewis:
Thank you. I just liked the pictures at first.
And I brought up Cuphead because it is hard and I feel like there were many points of, "I'm never going to beat this. I just don't know." But then when you beat it or you beat the person that you were like, "I'm never... there's just no way. This is impossible," it is like the best-
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Feeling.
Melinda Lewis:
... feeling in all of the world. So is that a feeling that you are chasing? Is that the dragon that you're chasing?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Yes.
Melinda Lewis:
The feeling of success?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Literally, yes. When I play video games now, especially with modern games, you can tell how the developers are building the game. When you play different games, you compare something like Fortnite to something like Mario Wonder, when Spider-Man... There's a very different gap between those games. Fortnite is very like, pay to get stuff. You got to do all these little things. We're going to keep updating the game. It's how a lot of games function these days. Whereas a lot of the games from the classic games, a lot of retro games, it's like you have to earn your way to victory, you know?
Melinda Lewis:
Mm-hmm.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
And I love playing games. That's why I prefer to play older games now because they have much more of a challenge, there's more story... there's more things to do. It's not that difficult of a game, but there can be challenges in the game, but when you overcome those certain challenges that you have, it feels so good.
Speaker 4:
You don't see that every day.
Speaker 5:
Love that sound.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
At least from my experience, that's what I definitely felt. So going forward with making games, I want to be able to create experiences that are similar to those old retro games, that you have to earn your way to the top. I like that experience. Not too hard, but just difficult enough-
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, not impossible.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
... to get you past and want you to keep playing.
Melinda Lewis:
Do you repeat games?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I have played a game multiple times. Yo-Kai Watch 3, that is the game I've played multiple times.
Melinda Lewis:
That's with ghosts, right?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Kind of. So Yo-Kai Watch, it's a Japanese folklore thing. There are like dead spirits that have these different powers effectively.
I was in seventh grade and I was like, "I need to play this series," but only the first game was in English. So the rest of the series was in Japanese. And by seventh grade there was already two and three out. So I ended up getting a Japanese 3DS and was able to play Yo-Kai Watch 2 and 3 in Japanese. And I played them, beat the entire games, played the post game, and even got Yo-Kai Watch 4, played it and beat it in Japanese. That's one of my favorite games.
When it comes to game genres, creature collector games are one of my favorite kind of games. It's games like Pokemon where you have all these different creatures. I love games like that. So Yo-Kai Watch,, Pokemon, anything of that sort of game are some of my favorites. I also like racing games, fighting games, and role playing games. And I think it's very important when you're playing a game because you get to fully take on your narrative.
Melinda Lewis:
So I want to start moving in towards sneakers and video games. So do you remember when you first got stoked for a pair of sneakers?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I'm going to say it was when Into the Spider-Verse came out back in 2018.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, okay.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I wasn't really huge into sneakers then. I was just like... I would just wear whatever I could afford at the time. So I was not really focused on them. That was still my initial video game phase. But Spider-Verse, I got to see that movie, their shoes coming out for the movie, and that's what kind of clicked in my head of why sneakers actually started to become cool. Now, the first pair I actually got, that I was physically looking for, were the ones from Across the Spider-Verse.
Speaker 6:
You all right?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I actually was able to get the shoes-
Melinda Lewis:
Full circle.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
... this time around and enjoy the movie. It's my favorite movie of all time currently, so yes.
Melinda Lewis:
How many times have you seen it?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I saw it three times in theaters. The day it came out, right in the middle, and the very last day it was in theaters. At three different theaters. So I saw all the different versions as well.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh my gosh, that's such a dedication to the craft of both storytelling and the way that sneakers help amplify characters or help tell the story of characters, which I know you're really interested in. It's like I know that video games have become more cinematic, but I'm just interested to know more about how they operate as you have seen them in video games?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Shoes, as a whole, in video games can vary from being a character that's barefoot depending on the time of the game. If it's like a fantasy, older type game, or more like dystopian era game, it's going to be more casual, nothing crazy. It's going to be like... Sometimes even metallic, if it's at night, they're not going to be wearing sneakers or anything.
Video games have a very wide range of locations, time periods and stuff like that, where you can really see the differences. But when it comes to sneakers specifically, it can also vary, because there's different styles of shoes depending on the type of game it is. So my favorite example probably is going to be Sonic the Hedgehog, mainly because that's part of their design. I've studied the design of Sonic characters and how their form factor works, and their hands, heads, and feet are large, very much larger compared to the rest of their body. So putting an emphasis on their shoes and how they work, and considering that a lot of them run, I think is also very cool. Specifically Sonic Riders is a game I've been playing a lot recently on the Game Cube.
So Sonic the Hedgehog, he has these boots that are like... let him hover and skate across different planes. So they have... One of the vehicles you can use in the game is just different variations of his boots for each character.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, wow.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
So instead of riding on a hoverboard, they're all skating across levels in the game.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. Well, and I was thinking about the way that Sonic is morphed, and I don't know how much he has changed over time, but when I was a young person playing, he is mostly just sneakers and hair, which is really the dream, I think, of all young kids who want to be teenagers, is "All I want is sneakers and hair. That is what I want to define." So really a model for multiple generations at this point of cool. And also practical because he runs so much. So the idea of him being barefoot, his little toesies have to be protected and cared for.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Yes, just in the movie.
Speaker 7:
So it won't hurt your feet anymore.
Sonic the Hedgehog:
Really?
Speaker 7:
Mm-hmm.
Sonic the Hedgehog:
No one's ever given me a gift before. I got to check that off my bucket list. All right, looking good.
Melinda Lewis:
Are there any other games that you think get sneakers right?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Well, obvious answer is 2K because it's a basketball game and they allow you to make shoes. That's what kind of, I think, for me, when I was younger, when I played 2K a little bit, I was like, "I can make my own character and my own shoes? Oh, that's interesting." So when I was able to take that real shoes and kind of see them do their thing, I was like, "Wow, that's amazing being able to physically use the character's shoes and put them on my character in-game and play actual games with different customized versions of Jordan's or Nike shoes."
It was pretty special to me as a kid. At least to my knowledge, there's not a lot of games that have sneakers as a focus. They're more of an asset in the game or just kind of a part of a character's design. A recent example I think of is Bomb Rush Cyberfunk. My most anticipated game of the year, actually. It's a game that's kind of centered around culture, dance style, and a bunch of different hip-hop-esque techno-dance-type music. So it combines different dance moves, BMX, skateboarding and rollerblading, and each character has their own unique design that kind of shows that street wear.
So the sneakers, I'm looking at them and I'm like... I can pinpoint where these shoes look like in the actual real world. I see some of them with a very similar type of shoe build to a Jordan 1 or an Air Max Dawn. So seeing those references in their own way, I think is really cool. And I also want to tie this into the custom Nike shoes.
Melinda Lewis:
Please do, because I've spent a lot of time on that site.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I think my love for creating shoes and seeing how the colors worked was with 2K, and then getting to do that with a Nike program as well, I think... I figured that out this summer, I could do that, I was like, "This is amazing." I made at least 15 on a span of a day, just trying out the colors they had and seeing what I could do to make them reference certain things. I made a pair of Sonic shoes with some Air Forces. I was so happy with that.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm also surprised by what I think will work in my head because you can get so into the details of, "This is what the laces look like," and "This little section here..." And I've really come to terms with how I'm not a designer because my shoes always look so janky by the end. But I think it also speaks to how hard it is to really design something that is functionable, fashionable, and hip.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Yes, for sure.
Melinda Lewis:
So what is your... Is it just about, for you, experimentation and play? Or what's the process?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
That's a very difficult question to answer.
Melinda Lewis:
[inaudible 00:11:29].
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I'm still figuring out that process myself.
Melinda Lewis:
Okay.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Design is one of those things that's like, I got to feel it to make it work. There's a lot of times I'll started a drawing and it just never ends up the way I want it to look, you know?
Melinda Lewis:
Mm-hmm.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
So when it comes to trying to figure out colors and different design aspects to make something look cool without a reference, it's very difficult.
Speaker 9:
Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
Sup, Mom? Yeah, so you can find us on all those things actually. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Just go to popquestpod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at PopQPodcast or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. All right, love you. Bye.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
My challenge for the summer in my project was creating a shoe, at least a sole for a shoe, based around a character from Spider-Verse. And that was my biggest challenge, because I'm like, "How do I incorporate this character's design into a shoe sole?" The bottom part of the shoe was like... "What am I going to do to make that stand out?" So what I did was make it edgy, pointy, and then I added different aspects of the character, so like his cape in the back, or the eyes from the character, and then different turbo things he had on his gauntlets. So it's not just the 2D line, it's got some 3D elements to it. It's got more than just a regular sole. It's got more attachments, more things to make it stand out. Then with color, of course, color it in the same way the character is. Thinking about all those different things, I think definitely helps. And having reference definitely helps too.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm interested to know what it is that resonates for you about Spider-Man in these iterations and why creating a sneaker based on this film was important and had to happen? Because you devoted 10 weeks to developing this sneaker. And we'll get a little bit more into the star-ness, but I really would like to start there in terms of what was it that you were like, "This has to happen. I have to create the sneaker."
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
When it comes to Spider-Man, Miles Morales iteration of Spider-Man is my favorite Marvel superhero.
Miles Morales:
My name is Miles Morales. I was bitten by a radioactive spider, and for two days I've been the one and only Spider-Man. I think you know the rest.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
For me, it's like he reminds me of myself a lot. And my friends always call me Miles Morales. So I have the costume and everything, so I have the stats to back it up. Probably out of every fictional character, probably Miles Morales is my favorite. And also, I always loved Peter Parker since I was a kid. I loved Peter Parker, don't get me wrong. Peter Parker is the original, the goat of Spider-Man. And then when I saw Miles Morales when I was in fifth grade, I was like, "That's just me."
Miles Morales:
I'm going to do my own thing.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
The first movie had a classic pair of Air Jordan 1's, retro 1's, Chicago color, just red and white and the black Nike logo.
Miles Morales:
Right.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Perfect crispy pair of shoes. I still want them to this day. But it was like... It's such a striking difference. When you see everyone else in their uniform, in their brown shoes, seeing a character not afraid to show his style with the sneakers, I was like, "That's amazing." It makes him stand out amongst everyone else. And then when it came to the design aspect, the movie, for me, is so influential because it's a huge step for animation. It was one of those things where it's like, it's not just a regular animated 3D movie, it is a special type of animation. It's got a slower frame rate, it's got a more stylized look and feel to it. And I love things that are heavily stylized, especially that look like Spider-Verse.
So seeing how the characters interacted, how the different step pieces interacted, how their shoes specifically interacted, especially Miles, seeing how it worked, I think was cool. So being able to take my own spin on that with a different version of Miles's character in a different universe, seeing how I could make that into a different shoe. Because he has his own shoe, but there's very limited amounts. So I'm like, "How can I make my own version that I can wear myself that's unique to me?"
Melinda Lewis:
In terms of your STAR project, you have all of these ideas about the significance of popular culture and how they are interrelated with the sneaker industry, how there's a back-and-forth between sneakers, helping amplify pop culture and popular culture, influencing sneakers. You have 10 weeks to do a project. Where do you even start with this big idea?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
It all started on a fateful day and I walk into the lab, and it's a lab full of a bunch of different things. Music production, Animation, 3D printing. But the most important thing is the sneaker wall, which is why it's a lot of the times called the sneaker lab because it's just a giant wall full of sneakers. And that interested me. I was like, "Oh, that seems fun." So then as the year moved forward, we started actually designing shoes and using VR spaces, 3D printing them out, then having different fabrics, attaching them together and seeing how we could fully make a shoe from scratch. That was such an amazing process.
So I was like, "Okay, how can I take this a step further for my STAR project?" I was like, "And this is what I'm going to do for STAR. No matter what, I'm making a shoe. I'm doing something shoe related because I have a space to do it and I have someone to do it with."
Melinda Lewis:
"I don't think anybody understands, this is happening."
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Exactly. Exactly how I felt. So I got to learn these steps myself, got to teach myself how to do this entire process from scratch. I knew how to 3D [inaudible 00:17:26] class, but I got to figure out how to make it more unique, more stylized than I want it to be. Improve my sketching ability so I can conceptualize what I really want to do as fast as possible. So my process for the whole project for the 10 weeks was, the first week or two I researched shoes. So I went on mood boards, top 10 lists, newspapers and stuff like that. Found like, what are these top 10 shoes from 2022? What were the shoes that were the most sold or the most popularized through different media forms? And then going on other websites to see what were the most sold shoes this year and last year. And then I made a giant 17-page document full of all these different shoes.
It was a grueling process, but it was worth it because I was able to cross-reference and see like, "Okay, this is what a general consensus of people would know through looking at these different shoes." So I picked nine of these shoes that most people would at least have at least seen before, if not worn. And then I went to interview about 15 or so different people ranging from sneaker heads, friends with a varying array of knowledge of sneakers, and family members, and were able to get a pretty broad look at all these different shoes. And I also had two different colorways for each shoe. So I had the regular basic colorway that most people would usually see them in or at least recognize them for that, then I had a really outlandish, really flashy colorway to see if that would change their answers.
So then I was like, "Okay, now that I have those data points, now it's time to actually create." So I spent most of the summer just kind of sketching out different sole designs under a Jordan 1 that I had in my Clip Studio Paint on my computer. And I was just sketching them out, seeing how it looked, and then matched them together, added their different best-of parts to them and made two different finalized colored variants. Then I 3D modeled them, 3D printed them, and then assembled them, and then I had my finished beta product.
Melinda Lewis:
That is bananagrams to me. That's incredible.
Miles Morales:
I never thought I'd be able to do any of this stuff, but I can. Anyone can wear the mask. You could wear the mask. If you didn't know that before, I hope you do now.
Melinda Lewis:
What was your favorite part of the project?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
So I think my favorite part of the project itself was the conceptualizing portion, because my favorite thing to do was conceptualize anything. That's what I want to do with video games going forward is just conceptualize character, stories, and just, I love sketching. So being able to just sketch, don't have to worry about coloring in the lines or whatever, I can just go ham. I like doing that. That was my favorite part of just like, "Okay, how can I make this character of Miles into a shoe? How can I design these different aspects? How can I place these things in the right spot?" And I tried placing stuff all over the different parts of the shoe. Having those kind of things, just thinking outside the box and designing stuff based around not realistic limits, I think was the most fun part. Then trying to constrain those into realistic limits and make them an actual product.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, I know that you were working on this stuff prior to STAR, but in this 10 week cycle you really got knee-deep into it. What are the things that you took away from? What are the transferable skills to the next part of your life?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I think the biggest skills I got out of it were determination and self-work. Because it was a lot of self-driven work, because this was a self-driven project, really. But I also, of course, design, taking things to a different level. Not just designing like, "I'm just going to draw the character." Draw different parts of the character on this specific clothing item. 3D modeling. I improved my 3D modeling skills. I'm not very good at it, but I improved on it a lot just by trying to mimic the style a little bit. But when it comes to creating things... I don't sit still when it comes to creation. So I do music production, creating characters. Music and characters are the things I like the most. Those are what draw me to video games and draw me to different things in life. So being able to create my own is what I always think about.
Melinda Lewis:
So when you're putting together a character, what is your approach? And then how does that focus on character creation, also work in the shoe creation and understanding that dynamic?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
When I think of character creators, as an artist, that someone who likes to draw myself a lot, I have my own vision of my fictional character. For all my different social media stuff, I have my own character. He's got his blue hair. He looks like me, but got blue hair and a blue and yellow color scheme. So when I'm creating characters for video games, I focus on that. I start with, "Okay, let's make it look like me a little bit, then make the hair blue," then I'm good. And change the color scheme to blue and yellow, my favorite color scheme. And then from there, being able to see my characters do different things in different games. But I can still pinpoint like, "Yo, that's still me in this game," or "this game style," I think is really cool.
Melinda Lewis:
I have one final-ish question.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Yes.
Melinda Lewis:
So in listening to you talk about video games and liking collecting and liking obstacles, did you ever think about that in relation to your research style and how research is a lot of collecting, a lot of obstacles? What was maybe your big boss for STAR?
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I think the big boss was 3D modeling the shoe. Because 3D modeling is very difficult, so being able to fully create something myself and not mess it up, I was like, "Let's go. The big boss is completed." And the rest of it's just easy. So I think the story line is, I have to make this shoe by the end of this narrative. I have to create this thing. So how am I going to get there? Well, I got to start by seeing what's already there. So I'm going to different shops, right?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Buying these different resources to use on my journey. And in the context of Pokemon, I have to fight these gym leaders, which are these... I guess, Miles Gyms, you could call them. So by this week I got to have all this data here. Once I get that, I get the badge, I get to move forward. And then I go forward and finally get to the final boss, the end game, to fight the 3D modeling process. That's the big thing I'm preparing for. So yeah... But it was overall a very good experience. I learned a lot and I definitely enjoyed it.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, that's great. Well, Derrick, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for stopping by and for being-
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
Thank you for having me.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh my gosh.
Derrick Banks, Jr.:
I appreciate it a lot.
Melinda Lewis:
It was my pleasure. Pop, the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek, with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen, and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.
Speaker 11:
I know it's important. I do. I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What are we talking about? Practice. We talking about practice, man. We talking about practice.