Pop, the Question S7-E49
“A Ratatouille Tail”
Episode Summary
In 2007, the world of fine cuisine forever changed its menu when Pixar Animation Studios and Walt Disney Pictures brought to life the animated feature Ratatouille. The film follows the journey of rat protagonist Remy, who leaves the conventions of his family and hometown to satiate a “faim” for fine French cuisine. As Host Dr. Melinda Lewis discovers in conversation with Drexel alumnus and Ratatouille superfan Clayton Fosterweber, the animated classic speaks to all ages and has spawned a variety of fan theories, including Fosterweber’s own interpretations around collectivism, queer identity, and a search to find meaning and companionship in the melting pot that is Paris.
Featured Guest Clayton Fosterweber (Alumnus, Drexel University; Former STAR Scholar, Office of Undergraduate Research & Enrichment Programs)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Director of Strategy, Pennoni Honors College)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Social Media Outreach Olivier Jacques
Graphic Design Felicia Wolfer
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded February 10, 2023 through virtual conferencing. Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of Drexel University or Pennoni Honors College. Copyright © 2023 Drexel University
TRANSCRIPT
Oprah:
You get a car! You get a car! You get a car!
Blanche Devereaux:
Whatever! It's all the same thing. We're all artists. We're all misunderstood.
Melinda Lewis:
Welcome to Pop, the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia.
We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From
Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Hey, everybody. I'm here with Clay Fosterweber, Honors Program and star scholar alum who graduated
from Drexel with a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Science. And we're going to talk about the film
Ratatouille. Hey Clay, how are you?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I'm well. I'm excited to start cooking with you.
Melinda Lewis:
It's amazing. Well, I'm excited to talk with you. I've been waiting a long time. Did you ever think five
years ago that you would be talking about Ratatouille at a podcast out of your university?
Clayton Fosterweber:
No. But as a queer person, me and my roommate sit down and just discuss the impact things have had
on culture. That's all we talk about, so it's like, but what did it really do for us?
Melinda Lewis:
So for the one person who may never have seen Ratatouille, give us a brief sum.
Clayton Fosterweber:
The biggest subversion of expectation in society I feel like is something that shouldn't be doing
something doing something, like a rat cooking. And then also on top of that: family, high cuisine, French
influence. It's a rat that wants to make an omelet, okay? That's all he wants to do is sit down and make a
nice omelet like the rest of us.
Remy:
Oh, Gusteau was right. Oh, yeah. Amazing. Each flavor was totally unique, but combine one flavor with
another, and something new was created.
Melinda Lewis:
The narrative starts with him on the streets. He's an outsider within the rat community, because he's
not satisfied with being a rat.
Clayton Fosterweber:
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He grew up in the countryside with his little basically mafia family. His dad's supposed to be like Al
Pacino looking. And he's the only one that wants to walk on his hind legs, and he's been blessed with
this genetic mutation where he can smell and read. There's a lot of reaches the movie asks you to make
that we just kind of jump to where it's like, "Sure. This rat loves reading cookbooks." If someone gains
sentience, they would only want to go and read in a garden.
Melinda Lewis:
Which, I would love to get into any of these pitch meetings where it's like, "Okay, so our next Pixar film,
we're going to need about a billion plus dollars. It's about a rat. And the rat really wants to be a chef.
And then he can be a chef, but he is a chef by controlling the body of a human man who lives under his
hat. Now stay with me. I feel like I'm losing some of you here."
Remy:
Team three will be handling fish. Team four, roasted items. Team five, grill. Team six, sauces. Get to your
stations. Let's go, go, go. Those handling food but walk on two legs.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I mean, it originally had a director that gave up on it because he thought it wasn't going to be successful.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah.
Clayton Fosterweber:
And then the guy that finished it, Brad Bird picked it up and he was like, "You know what? He was onto
something. We're going to push this rat envelope a little bit further. And we're going to finish this
project."
Melinda Lewis:
It comes out in 2007 between Cars and WALL-E.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Robot, rat, robot.
WALL-E:
WALL-E.
Eve:
WALL-E.
Clayton Fosterweber:
It's like at Pixar they have a giant wheel they spin of like, what are we going to stick human emotions on
today? And it's just going to land on something, and they're going to be like, "This new movie is about
how fire gets sad when his dad is mean to him." It's so crazy to think that they just have anything they
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can think of. They're like, "Let's give it human emotions. We'll give it a hero's journey. And we'll make
billions of dollars off this."
Melinda Lewis:
That's really important, because it's always something that is quite simple. It is always rooted in a very
simple projection of the hero's journey, English Class 101. But at the same time, they've built these wild
worlds around it in such a way that it just all feels so different and new and novel, and a world that you
could be swept into.
Remy:
Make sure that steak is nice and tenderized. Work it. Yeah, stick and move. Stick and move. Easy with
that sole meunière. Less salt. More butter. Only use the mimolette cheese. Whoa! Whoa! Compose the
salad like you were painting a picture. Not too much vinaigrette on that salad compose. Don't let that
beurre blanc separate. Keep whisking.
Melinda Lewis:
What is it about Ratatouille that rips you as a person?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I think it stuck with me so much, because it was so queer coded. And I think I've always rewatched it
again through different lenses and that's why it was so important to me. Because I was kind of like,
wow, he's really subverted all expectations of rats. That's so amazing. But then going back you're like, he
has to defy his family. He leaves the countryside to go make a career in a larger city where he has to
form a very codependent relationship with a coworker who's a man. And then he has to subvert a
hierarchical field by making friends with women and the other chefs.
There's just a lot to it that's really stuck with me. But more commentary on society I think, and I like
using cuisine as a high industry field that's been built up on male hierarchy and the rules that it was
given, basically. I think that's why it stuck with me. Because It's not my favorite movie. It's just like, these
are the top movies that I think are perfect movies in my eyes. But Ratatouille is probably Miss Queen,
queen on top, sitting on the throne, on her little rat throne.
Melinda Lewis:
She is your Ratatouille, both the film and the dish.
Blanche Devereaux:
What are you doing?
Linguni:
I'm cutting vegetables. I'm cutting the vegetables.
Blanche Devereaux:
No! You waste energy and time. You think cooking is a cute job, like Mommy in the kitchen? Well,
Mommy never had to face the dinner rush when the orders come flooding in, and every dish is different
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and none are simple, and all of the different cooking times, but must arrive on the customer's table at
exactly the same time, hot and perfect! Every second counts, and you cannot be Mommy!
What is this? Keep your station clear! When the meal rush comes, what will happen? Messy stations
slow things down. Food doesn't go, orders pile up. Disaster. I'll make this easy to remember. Keep your
station clear, or I will kill you!
Melinda Lewis:
When did you first watch Ratatouille?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I watched it a lot as a younger kid, and then I only really started really liking it, probably high school, is
when I really was probably coming into my own queerness. I was like, wow, this little rat has really got
the goods. This is this movie. I don't know. You rewatch movies all the time, and it doesn't have the
same impact on you.
Melinda Lewis:
How many times do you think you've watched it?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I've probably lost count, but I would guess somewhere around 13. It's a lot of times. It's definitely a
comfort movie where you just flick it on and...
Melinda Lewis:
That would be probably 26 hours.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I don't like to quantify time. I really... 26 hours well spent. Okay? A whole day of my life just spent
watching one film. I also really like all the fan theories. We can get into that too, but there's a lot of
theories outside of it that are brought into it that are really interesting and can make the film mean a lot
more than everybody does.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, I'm definitely interested in thinking about this narrative of Remy doing the story of leaving your
home behind, going to the big city to really find yourself as an individual. And hopefully find a
community that is out there just not where you are at. And I don't know how many people have talked
about that in relation to this movie. At least critically talk about the queerness of that narrative.
Clayton Fosterweber:
My favorite quote from the movie is they talk about nature, what nature means to humans. And deep in
your biology if you're open to change or not, if things are good, if you should be changing things, if you
should be pushing yourself and going towards what your passion is.
Django:
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Take a good long look, Remy. Now, this is what happens when a rat gets a little too comfortable around
humans. The world we live in belongs to the enemy. We must live carefully. We look out for our own
kind, Remy. When all is said and done, we're all we've got.
Melinda Lewis:
No, Dad, I don't believe it. You're telling me that the future is... Can only be more of this?
Django:
This is the way things are. You can't change nature.
Melinda Lewis:
Change is nature, Dad! The part that we can influence. And it starts when we decide.
Clayton Fosterweber:
It's kind of like that collective action of the first brave person. And that's I think queerness too, of the
first person leaving the small town being like, you know what? The only change that's going to come is
the one that I'm going to make, and it's going to be in this small way with my art.
It also really brings into the fact that when you do do that, you kind of split yourself in half. I have a part
of me that still loves my family and can't change where I came from and grew up in the countryside as a
poor little rat. But then also there's this new part of me where I've made a beautiful life for myself doing
what I love, but then they'll have to fight between which version do I show to each person? How do I act
in each space? How do I choose myself over my family, choosing the life that I love with the art that I do
over someone who needs me to smell their food for poison.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. How do you feel that that story is through the arc of a rat?
Clayton Fosterweber:
Love it. I love it. I love that they were like, but we are going to make it walk on two feet just because
that's a little fruity. He's going to walk with his little rat hands out. He's got a little sugar in his tank. That
is just the whole premise of his rat narrative.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I mean I think that that's also part of a narrative of queerness, of being marginalized. Or like,
you're here. But then also saying, you know what? This is the thing that makes me me, and I'm going to
go off and do me in the way that I want to see fit.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah, it's true. He almost has a DL relationship with the guy. He is secretly working with someone. They
have this beautiful relationship tied in more than just their work.
That's another part I love is it takes place in France, which is so corny that it's supposed to be like the
romance capital of the world, and they clearly put a rat there being like, we could do so much with love
with this movie. French motif is all about mon amour, whatever French is, I don't really speak French.
But there's only one love story in it. And there's two characters, the rat and the food critic, that both
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don't have love interests that are definitely the most queer coded. Oh, I only care about my art only
because it's not really acceptable for me to have a romantic interest in the story.
Anton Ego:
The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Not everyone can
become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere. It is difficult to imagine more humble
origins than those of the genius now cooking at Gusteau's, who is, in this critic's opinion, nothing less
than the finest chef in France. I will be returning to Gusteau's soon, hungry for more.
Melinda Lewis:
In thinking about those two, they're also the ones who are the most influenced by a matriarch as
opposed to the patriarch. The rat community that Remy comes from is very much about the father kind
of making the decisions. But in fact the most important influence on him and the critic is the matriarch.
So talk about another sense of rebellion, of I refuse and reject this structure. I'm going to care and family
and providing warmth and comfort and home, which both of those characters have to deal with these
things and navigate, but the core is this way of being.
Clayton Fosterweber:
You are spot on. That is so, that's so true. And that kind of goes into-
Melinda Lewis:
Well I only got that from you! You're the one who made me think about that.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah. I mean, because the fan theory is that Remy grew up in the same house as the food critic did.
Basically, when the food critic's mother becomes old, she's still cooking the same way. Remy learns to
cook through her, watching her, reading her cookbooks. He makes the same meal for him. But you're
right. I mean it is like food is love. We show our love and care no matter what. Creation is how we show
attention to the things that we love. And Linguini also doesn't grow up with his father, because Gusteau
is off doing his chef dreams while his mother is the only one to raise him. So he's another one who's just,
he has a maternal impact. Men with mommy issues, rats with mommy issues. Why does Pixar need to
have a dead mom in everything?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I mean I think that is an interesting phenomenon. And we could talk about, well, it's got such
impact, but I would really like to see women live. That would be really nice. Yeah, let Bambi's mom knit a
sweater or something. Let her take a dance class.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I just read a theory that the famous chef that starts the restaurant, Gusteau, also had a rat in his hat. So
he was also being controlled by a rat, basically saying that the only reason linguini could get his hair
pulled is because he got that genetically from his father who was also being controlled by a rat chef. And
that when his rat chef died, he started making bad food, and then died from bad critiques.
Melinda Lewis:
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What is the evidence?
Clayton Fosterweber:
They say you can see a rat under his hat. I'm not going to go into all that. There's just a part where they
basically put his little chef hat in a little glass box to memorialize him. And he wants to do a DNA test to
check if his son is really his son. And then he takes a hair from the hat of the original chef, and he comes
back and he goes, "It's so weird. The first time I did the test, it came back as rodent.z'
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, okay.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Being like, there are rodent hairs in this hat, there's rodent hairs all over, and then the guy thinks he's
going crazy. Because he thinks people are placing evidence around.
Melinda Lewis:
But what is the pleasure in the fan theory, do you think?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I think it's got so many fan theories because people really want to make it mean more than it already
means to them. And when a film can actually do that, I think it's very beautiful. And it makes you feel
important that you were out here thinking about details that somebody else might've missed.
Speaker 1:
Thank God Remy stopped to make in the famous words of Adam driver...
Adam Driver:
Soup,
Speaker 1:
What if Remy didn't save the soup? So to start off, the soup would've been sent out and most likely got
the restaurant another bad review and possibly lose another star.
Melinda Lewis:
It is like, I think, about the text living on. The fact that you can talk about it, and I am always so surprised
by some of the things that people come up with. And I'm also, sometimes, I don't know about that. But I
feel like it means a lot if you want to spend a lot of time kind of thinking about the possibilities and
building new worlds upon new worlds. And I also think that making art and making beautiful things can
be resistant and radical.
Clayton Fosterweber:
They have that line in Rent that's like, the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation. Instead of destroying
things, making something is really the peak humanity of what we can all achieve.
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Melinda's Mom:
Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the
Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
'Sup, mom. Yeah, so you can find us on all those things actually, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Just go to
PopQuestPod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our
website and leave us a message at PopQPodcast, or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You
can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have
to promise me to rate and review. All right, love you. Bye.
This movie might've come before your time, but did you ever watch An American Tail? It was about a
mouse who came from Russia and about the Jewish American experience in the US. So they went to
New York first and lived in mouse tenements, and then they moved out west for westward expansion
and had a whole life there. But it was another example of rodents being used as a means to talk about
human experience.
Fievel Mousekewitz:
(singing)
Clayton Fosterweber:
I certainly will be tuning in, because my family are Russian Jews that immigrated to New York.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, no way?
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah. And I would love to project onto a mouse, because that's my favorite thing to do is handling my
feelings through rodents.
Melinda Lewis:
It's like, yeah, your whole life can be summarized by these iconic tales. That's so fascinating. In terms of
thinking about Pixar in particular, what was your first?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I want to make it very clear, I am not a Disney adult. Okay? I do not want to come on here and talk about
Disney or the mega conglomerate that Disney has become and bought up all of our media. No, I think
my first Pixar, probably Bug's Life.
Melinda Lewis:
Oh, okay.
Clayton Fosterweber:
My parents really liked it. I watched it all the time as a kid. It had really great meaning and message, and
that pu pu platter joke really sticks out in my mind for some reason.
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Speaker 2:
Hey, who wanted the pu pu platter?
Clayton Fosterweber:
But that's definitely like baby's first Pixar.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, the first one was Toy Story.
Clayton Fosterweber:
True.
Melinda Lewis:
Which, if you were not there for it was a, I mean, that just did a real overhaul of everything. But Bug's
Life is I think a really good one, because to me as a little kid, I remember thinking, this seems really
complicated for a child's movie. I'm understanding it, but I also feel like there's more happening than
just these ants. I knew that I wasn't old enough, but I knew that it was working on levels. And I think
that's what Pixar has been particularly good at, kind of working on levels.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I feel like they say they hide these themes for kids, but I feel like they're really hiding the themes for
adults. Because I feel like adults have a lot more time wrapping their head around division. And then
having it be about ants and grasshoppers is way easier than race. You know what I mean?
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. And also just collective action and the power of binding together to fight evil forces. I mean,
you've clarified, you've defined that you are not a Disney adult, but do you follow through the Pixar
timeline?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I mean, I'm not a Disney adult, but I love good animation. And so I am tuning into Pixar to see a lot of
money put into a film. I'm really trying to see that budget. I'm trying to see that well-thought-out plot.
I'm trying to see that writer's room cook up some magic.
Melinda Lewis:
What is your rubric for a good animated film? What are you check, check, checking off your list?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I mean, I need to see forethought and connection, especially for a kid's movie. Something like Bug's Life
really took a lot of thought into, how are we going to create a contrast theme of controlling a lower
group, or collective action like you were saying? How do we turn that into something that's, yeah, cute,
but loops back around to a real thing. Ratatouille is the biggest instance where I can think of a lot of
subverted thought put into action via goofy animation. So I don't necessarily need it to be the Avatar
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movie where they spent 3 billion dollars to make amazing effects. But I definitely need to see creative
control, and seeing someone really passionate about making a storyline that really wraps around.
Melinda Lewis:
So is it about being able to be swept away by the film? Do you want to be scooped into the fantasy? Is it,
for you, about being able to escape, which means having all the visuals, having all the stories?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I want to be the rat cooking the food. I want to smell the food that I'm cooking in France with the French
music and the French lighting. I want the whole atmosphere. I can think of maybe something else like
Moana that does that. That's very hero's journey, but really brings you into this universe of beautiful
music and water scenes.
Moana:
(singing)
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah, definitely like a microcosm niche feeling from each film.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, if we're talking about the fantasy of Toy Story, it would be like friendship, community, and all
that. But I'd rather maybe go to France.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah, I would definitely rather smell a fresh grape than-
Melinda Lewis:
Than Buzz Lightyear's jet packs.
Buzz Lightyear:
Now, thank you all for your kind welcome.
Rex:
Say, what's that button do?
Buzz Lightyear:
I'll show you. Buzz Lightyear to the rescue.
Slinky:
Hey, Woody's got something like that. His is a pull string, only it-
Mr. Potato Head:
Only it sounds like a car ran over it.
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Clayton Fosterweber:
I think the point of this though is to either make you laugh or to make you cry. And I think if your
entertainment isn't doing that, it's not good entertainment. That is entertainment to me. Evoking a
connection to something through a human emotion.
Melinda Lewis:
A feeling. Yeah.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I hate to brag, but I'm a very emotionally intelligent man, and I cry at every movie. I'm sobbing. I don't
know, Inside Out had me in tears. Up had me in tears. I'm very quick to cry. That's how I solve most of
my problems, just tears streaming down my face. And I don't know, I feel like if you're going to go home
and think about a movie, you have had to have some emotional response. It's almost like a good first
date. You have to have some sort of emotional trigger. If it was flatlining the whole time, you're like, not
much to remember. But if he made me cry, I'm never going to forget him.
Melinda Lewis:
Well, I don't know if that's the best first date.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah. I'm definitely not one to go to a movie though for a love story that'll make you cry. I'm not really a
Notebook kind of girl where I'm like, yeah, I really can't wait to sit down and think about hetero love
breakups and sob. I don't know. I'll go to a kid's movie. I'll be like, I can't wait to cry through Cars 2, man!
That pickup truck, it's just so beautiful.
Melinda Lewis:
What is it that, because you're in environmental science, and I know that there's a lot more to it than
just birds.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Yeah.
Melinda Lewis:
What is your beat, so to speak?
Clayton Fosterweber:
Contaminants like dangerous chemicals in the ground and water.
Melinda Lewis:
Just, you know, saving the world.
Clayton Fosterweber:
Getting them out, and hopefully not putting them back in.
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Melinda Lewis:
Do you think, as somebody who is interested in contamination and the environment, do you think that
Ratatouille is a route? Are you trying to sniff the poison in people's food?
Clayton Fosterweber:
I mean, I am really obsessed with the new frontier of science and gene editing and gene modification
through contamination, of how we're all basically going to get cancer from our exposure to the
contaminants we've made. We are the ones adding all of these new manmade chemicals into the
ground that will result in some form of mutation in something.
Melinda Lewis:
It just seems to me that you liked Bug's Life and Ratatouille is your Pixar films, and they're both very
central to the natural world and the relationship between society and nature.
Clayton Fosterweber:
No, definitely. I love movies that take into account the natural world. It also reads into maybe from the
environmental science perspective, not really thinking that humans are the apex of all species on earth.
People usually assume that humans are, because they're so smart and because we've got thumbs and
can critically think, that they are just the most suited for this planet and that they're the top dog. But
basically, a biological evaluation is like, if you can fill your niche, you are the top species. You know what
I mean? A lot of people argue bacteria is the most important, or you know what I mean? If rodents can
survive underneath humans and make us work for them in a sense of eating trash and occupying this
niche that we've created, it's like you're more successful than humans because you'll probably survive
longer than we do.
Speaker 3:
(singing)
Melinda Lewis:
Do you have any final words about Ratatouille?
Clayton Fosterweber:
Last closing thought is, the rat's name is Remy! The rat's name is not Ratatouille! Ugh!
Melinda Lewis:
Well, thanks, Clay. This has been super fun, and I've had a whole worldview change after this. There's
been a lot more time thinking about it.
Clayton Fosterweber:
I really appreciate it.
Melinda Lewis:
Now I'm going to have to re-watch it.
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Pop, the Question, S7-E49, A -Ratatouille- Tail,... (Completed 09/22/23)
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Page 13 of 13
Clayton Fosterweber:
I think I might too. I think I might too.
Melinda Lewis:
Pop, the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are
produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under
the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen, and the Pennoni
Honors College at Drexel University.
Allen Iverson:
I know it's important. I do. I honestly do, but we talking about practice, man. What're we talking about?
Practice? We talking about practice, man. We talking about practice.