Pop, the Question (S6: E47)
Getting Real about Housewives
Featured Guest Christie Ruggieri (Director, International Admissions; Alumna, Drexel University)
Host and Producer Melinda Lewis, PhD (Associate Director, Marketing & Media)
Dean Paula Marantz Cohen, PhD (Dean, Pennoni Honors College)
Executive Producer Erica Levi Zelinger (Director, Marketing & Media)
Producer Brian Kantorek (Assistant Director, Marketing & Media)
Research and Script Melinda Lewis, PhD
Audio Engineering and Editing Brian Kantorek
Original Theme Music Brian Kantorek
Production Assistance Noah Levine
Social Media Outreach Jaelynn Vesey
Graphic Design Zale Heller
Logo Design Michal Anderson
Additional Voiceover Malia Lewis
Recorded January 18, 2023 through virtual conferencing.
Pop, the Question is a production of Marketing & Media in Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University. The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of Drexel University or Pennoni Honors College.
Copyright © 2023 Drexel University
Episode Summary
The Real Housewives is a television franchise of voluminous proportions. With over 10 American-produced series since 2006 (each with multiple seasons and based in varied locations), a conglomerate of spin-offs, and numerous international series to boot, the Bravo network continues to attract the attention of audiences the world over. With characters, locations, and on- and off-screen drama aplenty, the franchise is both soap-opera-reality-show and cultural institution. Host Dr. Melinda Lewis joins longtime Housewives fan and Drexel University Director of International Admissions Christie Ruggieri to take a deep dive into The Real Housewives universe, where the show’s stars exhibit transgressive behavior and demonstrate how anything is possible on modern television.
TRANSCRIPT
Melinda Lewis:
(Singing).
Welcome to Pop, the Question, a podcast that exists at the intersection of pop culture and academia. We sit down and talk about our favorite stuff through the lenses of what we do and who we are. From Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University, Dr. Melinda Lewis here. I'm your host.
Hey, y'all. I'm here with Christie Ruggieri, director of International Admissions and a Drexel Honors Program alum, and we are here to talk about one of the most important things in my life and I think Christie's life, The Real Housewives. And we're going to go everywhere from turtle time to whooping it up.
Hey, Christie. What's up?
Christie Ruggieri:
Hi. It's good to be here, Melinda. Thanks for having me.
Melinda Lewis:
I'm so excited.
Christie Ruggieri:
I know. What a treat.
Melinda Lewis:
One thing I would like to start with is if somebody came up to you and was like Real Housewives, what is it? How would you describe the Real Housewives to somebody who has absolutely no foundation?
Christie Ruggieri:
Right, to like an alien?
Melinda Lewis:
Yes, there's an invasion on the planet. It's Independence Day, but they only want one thing, which is what is Real Housewives?
Christie Ruggieri:
So The Real Housewives is a franchise on Bravo that has morphed over almost two decades. It started off as a reality show that was supposed to be showing behind the curtain how the rich lived, specifically housewives, who mostly didn't have jobs. But through the years, as reality TV has progressed and social media has morphed everything that we consume, it's really become much bigger than that. There's multiple cities. They all have a different personality and flair. I like to think that every city kind of is rooted around a different theme. So New Jersey's family, Potomac is race, Salt Lake City is religion, Beverly Hills is fame, and New York is addiction. I think Salt Lake and Potomac are particularly interesting when it comes to those. They're also some of the newer ones, so it might have been a little bit more intentional than some of the previous ones. But now they're mostly women playing a character, that have a lot of plastic surgery, and it's just a good time with table flipping and drinks throwing in your face.
Melinda Lewis:
They're women who represent us as people.
Christie Ruggieri:
That's what I do on Saturday.
Melinda Lewis:
I can't wait to punch the clock and just throw a table, get into fights, go on vacation, and so I can fight.
Christie Ruggieri:
Put a fake leg just on a table to stop an argument.
Melinda Lewis:
Iconic. Iconic
Speaker 5:
The only thing that is artificial or fake about me, is this. I am sick of it. I am sick of you all accusing me. I've got everything else is real.
Melinda Lewis:
And you're like an early adopter, right?
Christie Ruggieri:
I grew up in a big reality TV family, though I have been consuming reality TV for as long as I can remember, and I've really been watching it almost ever since.
Melinda Lewis:
So when you talk about reality television, I'm going to guess Survivor was a part of, because that, to me, was like, yeah, there was reality shows, but Survivor had such a massive impact, and that, to me, is the nexus of the power of reality shows. And then you have Amazing Race. But what was it about this show? Because it's not Survivor, it's not a competition. Well, I mean there is competition, but there's not a prize, in the same way.
Christie Ruggieri:
Right. Totally. I feel like Housewives, and I'm curious if you agree, I feel like it was one of the first shows maybe outside of The Real World that didn't have a game. It wasn't gamified. It was just really being like, watch these people hang out and live their lifestyle. And I think in the very beginning, the allure was wow, look at how rich they are. On a weekend, they just throw a $50,000 birthday party for their two-year-old or whatever. So in the beginning, it was much calmer, I feel, and it was just kind of fun to see how the other half lives. But then over time, the drama between the women kind of started to outshine and also the wealth almost became a given and assumed. And now it's even weirder because today, it's appearances. They're trying to convince you that they're richer than they actually are.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah, I would agree with that. It's interesting to think about The Real World, because the whole thing was stop being polite and get real, was the tagline for that.
Speaker 6:
To find out what happens.
Speaker 7:
What?
Speaker 8:
When people stop being polite. Could you get the phone?
Speaker 9:
And start getting real.
Speaker 10:
The Real World.
Melinda Lewis:
And I think for a long time, I just rewatched the first two seasons of OC and the first season is so boring, because they're trying so hard to not do that. They're trying to do a more adult version of a reality show and kind of doing an intervention style. This is a documentary, it's not a reality show, but we also wanted people to fight and we also want to make fun of how ridiculous these people are or how bad parents they are or whatever. Until they, like you said, hit a rhythm where they understand, oh, this is about people who can't let go of their ego. This is about people who really want to be aspirational and also think of themselves as aspirational.
Christie Ruggieri:
Right, totally.
Melinda Lewis:
So OC is the original. When New York, when Atlanta, when New Jersey come in, are you already buying into it and yes. Or are they courting you?
Christie Ruggieri:
Yeah, so I bought into them pretty quickly, mostly because I grew up in Jersey, very, very Jersey, stereotypical Jersey. So OC was fun, but I remember when especially New York and New Jersey came out, which were some of the other earlier ones, we just as a family liked it even more, because their personalities, even though of course they're kind of caricatures and whatever, they're on TV, just Bethenny, I know people that talk like that. So I think we just immediately were like, oh, this is fun to see people with similar backgrounds to us in these environments, which I think also is part of the reason why it does so well and why they have so many cities now.
Speaker 11:
People make fun of Jersey girls, but I think they're just jealous.
Speaker 12:
If you're going to mess with my family, you're messing with me.
Melinda Lewis:
What is it, do you think, that keeps you engaged to devote part of your life to these housewives? I have spent 16 years of my life growing up with some of these people. What is it that connects you to the housewives that you want to spend a lifetime with them?
Christie Ruggieri:
I mean, the women know what they're doing now. They know they're making a show. They're there to deliver a plot, and they're there for views. And I hate to say it, but it works, right? I've been trying to stop watching Beverly Hills for so long, and then every trailer at the end of the season, they're like, ooh, we're going to tease you with this plot. Did Brandi sleep with someone? And then I'm like, you know what? I do kind of want to watch that. I will say it has been frustrating because everyone is so self-aware now that they really do tease out these plots and then usually, they don't deliver. Right? Heather recently was punched on Salt Lake City.
Melinda Lewis:
Allegedly.
Christie Ruggieri:
Allegedly, allegedly. I apologize.
Melinda Lewis:
Thank you. Don't get us sued, Christie.
Speaker 13:
San Diego.
Speaker 14:
It's best that you missed the trip, because it was wild. Heather woke up one day with a black eye.
Speaker 16:
Black eye.
Speaker 15:
Did somebody hit her?
Speaker 16:
She's been very elusive about it. She said she doesn't remember.
Speaker 13:
I'm super worried.
Speaker 17:
It's just a dumb black eye.
Speaker 13:
What happened? Do you have any recollection?
Speaker 17:
Nope.
Speaker 13:
There's a part of me, and tell me if I'm wrong, that feels like you're protecting somebody.
Christie Ruggieri:
That was a big plot point that they were teasing all season and then they literally tell you nothing about it. It has been a little disappointing recently, because I feel like they are doing that more and more, but they tease it so well that I watch the season anyway. I am curious, because after so many years you do get invested in them. I can't say that I view them all as my best friends, but it's like a soap opera. That's really what is, I feel.
Melinda Lewis:
Do you think that there is anybody on any of the shows that you could be friends with?
Christie Ruggieri:
I do like Bethenny. Bethenny's not a great housewife all the time, but she's actually kind of grounded, more or less. I love Luann. I would love to get invited backstage to her cabaret shows, so I'd want to be a friend with her. I think Ashley on Potomac, I would maybe like to be friends with too. Now that she's divorced, I think she could be fun. Oh, and Garcelle. I love Garcelle.
Melinda Lewis:
I think Garcelle comes to mind as somebody who both knows we are on a show, but also just seems really legit as a person, as a human. I feel like Garcelle is maybe the only one that I can think of immediately that I feel like could be something. The other ones kind of make me a little nervous. I think I could be friends with Kandi. I think she's pretty legit.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yeah, I agree.
Melinda Lewis:
And again, understands and I think is the one who most often is the voice of reason of what is going on here? And I might want to just, I would like to have one dinner with Sonja. I don't know if I want to be besties.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yes. And I would love to hear some of her stories from her life. I imagine those would be fantastic, but I really don't want her calling me at 2:00 AM in the meltdown.
(Singing)
Speaker 18:
Hey, it's your mom. I have a question about that podcast you do. Are you on the Instagram or the Twitter or the Facebook? If I have an idea for a podcast, how do I get in touch with you? Love you. Bye.
Melinda Lewis:
What's up, Mom? Yeah, so you can find us on all those things, actually. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Just go to popquestpod on any one of those and follow. If you want to send us ideas, you can either go over to our website and leave us a message at popqpodcast. Or you can get us directly at popq@drexel.edu. You can actually find us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher. I can help set it up when I get home, but then you have to promise me to rate and review. All right. Love you. Bye.
(Singing)
Is there, for you, a season or a storyline of Housewives where it's just perfection?
Christie Ruggieri:
Yeah. I loved the Luann and Tom plot line, just her whole wedding to him and everyone hating him, because it was dancing around the fact that Luann was spiraling and had some dark stuff going on in her life, and that those were also highlighted on the show, which wasn't as fun, and I think dipped your toe a little bit more into the stuff that is uncomfortable to watch. But that kind of stuff, it was just a good time, without it getting too crazy.
Speaker 19:
Deny, deny, deny. That's Luann. She'll never admit when she's wrong. You make up lies all the time about things.
Speaker 20:
What? Like what?
Speaker 19:
It's your whole way of being.
Speaker 20:
I thought you liked me. I really thought you liked me.
Speaker 19:
No, when you lie. You put people down to make yourself look good. That's your biggest thing.
Speaker 20:
You have a problem with the way I am with my children and it's none of your business.
Speaker 19:
I have no problem. You can be however you want to be, but don't sit there and make up stories about me and how I am to you when I'm not threatening you.
Speaker 20:
I didn't make up any story. You called and threatened me, so own it.
Speaker 19:
I don't know what you... You've lost it.
Christie Ruggieri:
And so when she finally has to confront it, it's pretty satisfying. But then she gets arrested for a DUI again, which is also kind of sad.
Melinda Lewis:
And gets divorced immediately.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yes.
Melinda Lewis:
And to me, I think this is, if we want to talk about what makes Real Housewives so great, it's the long-form storytelling. Because I think that with that example, it's a brilliant example of what they can accomplish in a season.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yeah. No, totally. She really gets confronted with the fact that she's not perfect, finally. Even though she was divorced previously, she was able to blame it on him and everything was fine, and she finally had to be faced with the fact that she's not perfect and it's happening on the television, and that's embarrassing for someone. And you're right, I think it is long-form storytelling. You learn these narratives of these people and all these dramas that they highlight are just little blips in that longer narrative. And that's why I'm still watching Beverly Hills.
Speaker 21:
Do you have a drinking problem?
Speaker 22:
No, I don't have a drinking problem.
Speaker 23:
Neither do I. But you tried to push it.
Speaker 22:
Have I said it about you? Yeah, I thought you did, because there were so many instances-
Speaker 23:
There were three.
Speaker 22:
Where you were out of control.
Speaker 23:
Three. Three.
Speaker 22:
Okay?
Speaker 23:
Excuse me. You know exactly what I've been going through and I told you straight up what happened. But you tried to push that false narrative that I had a problem.
Speaker 22:
I did not try to push that.
Speaker 23:
Yeah, you did. You kept talking about it.
Speaker 22:
No. No, no, no. What I did, Erika, is that I said, you need to figure-
Speaker 23:
Yes, Garcelle.
Speaker 22:
You need to figure out your medicine and drink ratio.
Speaker 23:
I did.
Speaker 22:
That's what I said.
Speaker 23:
I did.
Speaker 22:
It's a narrative. But just because you don't like it, doesn't make it false.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, I feel like I have this realization with Beverly Hills. For 10 seasons, we have these little arguments about who is doing what and who's saying stuff about who and who's the puppet master of the Beverly Hills housewives. And it takes us 10 to 11 seasons for somebody to say, yes, Lisa Vanderpump, you are this person. You are the one doing this. And it's like, who needs the Godfather when you have Real Housewives doing this work for you?
Christie Ruggieri:
Completely.
Melinda Lewis:
Sorry, Coppola.
Speaker 24:
It's all clear to me. But you know what?
Speaker 25:
What's clear to you?
Speaker 24:
You were guilty by omission. You sat there when they're saying, "Who said bring the dog forward?" And I saw the texts. I'm shocked.
Speaker 26:
All the twists and turns that this has taken, all roads lead to Lisa Vanderpump. If Vanderpump knew Teddi knew, why didn't she call Teddi and say, Teddi, you got to keep your mouth shut? Did she do that? Nope.
Melinda Lewis:
There have been a ton of offshoots. One of them is Vanderpump Rules, but then there's another one called Real Housewives Ultimate Girls Trip. Are you also watching those?
Christie Ruggieri:
I've only watched one of them so far. I watched season two. I loved it. I loved it so, so, so much. It's great, because they're acknowledging that they're not on the show a little bit. They're able to talk about being cast members a little bit more in a way that they're not allowed to when they're actually on The Housewives, because Bravo has this very weird agreement where they always have to pretend like they're not being filmed, even though everyone knows that they are. And on Girls Trip, there's a little bit more freedom there. And I loved on the second one, they're all women who are no longer on the show, and it was really fun to see what they've all done with that. Do you like them?
Melinda Lewis:
I love them. I love the first one, because that one has a mix of, it's The Real Housewives universe, and they're all from different narratives. They've officially done the MCU universe. But the brilliance is that they're all from different seasons and they all have different vibes that come attached.
Christie Ruggieri:
You're right, it's very Marvel comic universey. It's layers upon layers upon layers. And I can't touch The Bachelor. I don't do Marvel Comics. I don't do any of that, because I don't have the brain space for it. All my brain space is focused on Bravo, I guess.
Melinda Lewis:
If you were to show maybe a season or an episode or a clip to somebody who had never watched it before, what would you show them as like, hey, this is why I watch.
Christie Ruggieri:
So two come to mind for me, I just rewatched the Scary Island, the three episodes of Scary Island was so much better than I even imagined, because they all go to the beach and they do an amateur photo shoot, like a sexy amateur photo shoot for their husbands. And it's just so bad and so campy to watch these women think that they're sexy, that they're not.
Speaker 27:
Oh my God, wait, wait, wait. Put your hands down. Put your hands down. Hands down, hands down. No, no, no. Hands down. No, but keep your shoulders back. Good job. Put your butt down.
Speaker 28:
It's hard to keep that thing down. I'm really feeling Kelly's in her element and I'm trusting her. And I'm always happy to have my picture taken, let's be honest.
Speaker 27:
Hot.
Christie Ruggieri:
And then Ramona and Bethenny are getting married. Ramona's renewing her vows, and Bethenny's getting married for the first time, and they do a little bachelorette bridal shower thing and they buy them handcuffs and whatever, and they just are like, oh my God, no, I can't. I'm too good. I've never done this before. And I just think it's just really funny and really goofy. The other one that I love, I guess I like New York is what I'm learning from this conversation. But another one is when they go to Miami in New York, and it's after Luann gets arrested, so she's trying to stay sober, and so they're all going to the beach and Luann's like, no, I'm not going to go to the beach. And it said she takes a walk and she goes to look at the theater that her poster is hanging on, because she's performing there in a few weeks. And she's just like, wow, look at me. I'm going to perform here. That's amazing.
Melinda Lewis:
It's like she's gone to the Louvre. I mean, it's like she's seeing Leonardo da Vinci's, Mona Lisa for the first time and just taking it all in. It's a very performative moment.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yes. It's so funny. And then also, Luann takes Sonja to an AA meeting, because Sonja does have some substance abuse issues that I think she could potentially work through. And so she goes, and Sonja just comes home crying. Well, I don't want to make fun of other people's struggles. I just think it's funny how oblivious she was, so I love that too. And then the Jen Shah getting arrested episode when they're all on the bus and they're all just there and watching them all, how they all react to it, I think is also quite a treat too.
Melinda Lewis:
I mean, that episode was real gold.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yes.
Melinda Lewis:
The producers must have been all high-fiving that day, because that was truly event television. The only clip I would add is Kelly Bensimon running through the streets of New York and saying, this is why I love the city. It's just, it's me and the cars and the bicycles. And she is straight up running through traffic and nobody is excited about this but her, but she is so oblivious to why this is so ridiculous, and it's clear that this is what she pitched to the producers, about I'm running through New York. But so much of her performance is trying to be real and not a regular New York socialite.
Speaker 27:
Running in New York City is probably one of the most exhilarating things you could ever do. I'm just the same person in sweatpants that I am in a gown. And I really think it's important to wear the things that look good on you. So if you have great legs, you should wear things that show off your legs. I'm with everybody. I'm with the bikers and the taxis, I'm with everybody. It's the ultimate experience of being in New York is running in traffic. It's like you're in the traffic trenches.
Christie Ruggieri:
When there's moments where you can clearly see that they're living in another universe that the rest of us are, I think that's really always a treat for sure.
Melinda Lewis:
How do you respond to reality television is terrible, Housewives are terrible, there's no value in it?
Christie Ruggieri:
Oh, I've thought about this a lot. I love reality TV and I love The Housewives, because it is a window into how we are perceived. And I also think Housewives, even more specifically, how women are perceived. It's just really interesting to see everyone that's making fun of them. They're like, oh, you're just getting a lot of plastic surgery and you're talking about nothing. But one thing that I will say is that one of my friends, she's a pretty quiet woman, she's not aggressive, she said that the reason why she likes watching The Housewives is because she feels like she can live vicariously through them. I love watching women unabashedly just show their emotions and yell at someone over something stupid and arbitrary, because we can't navigate the world like that. No one can. Not just [inaudible 00:21:09] anybody can. But it is kind of fun to see other people do that.
Melinda Lewis:
I agree. I mean, how many tables have I wanted to flip in my lifetime, and get paid for it and be asked to come back, to make other people's life miserable, because I can?
Christie Ruggieri:
Right. Exactly.
Melinda Lewis:
That's not allowed in the real world. Yeah, I think that there is something about pleasure in watching people transgress and do things that they shouldn't be able to do. And I think that there is something very compelling about watching the performance, and I think that a lot of people recognize it to some degree as a performance. Although, Bravo fans.
Christie Ruggieri:
I know. I think about that too. I'm always like, what percentage are watching this as camp and then what percentage are watching this is just real?I'll never know, but I would love to know.
Speaker 29:
Clip. Clip. Clip. Clip. You Fool.
Speaker 30:
Clip. I don't know what that means. I guess it means shut your (beep) mouth. Clip.
Melinda Lewis:
Do you think that Real Housewives is on its way out anytime soon? Do you feel like there is a term limit on how much Housewives there can be, or do you think it's just going to keep replicating itself over and over in our lifetime?
Christie Ruggieri:
I think about that because I'm like, am I going to be watching this until I die? Because I really don't want to be doing that. I feel like I need them to end so that I can
Melinda Lewis:
The one thing keeping Christie alive is what's going to happen next on Vanderpump Rules?
Christie Ruggieri:
I do think that there is a cap, and I think that they're getting closer and closer to it. They keep finding new ways to keep it going, which is smart. But I do think that Summer House and Winter House is a good addition, and I think that they're going to start pivoting more into that direction.
Melinda Lewis:
Yeah. I mean, we have to remember that we've been watching Ramona Singer for 15 years of our life, and there has not been much growth in those 15 years, and the people have finally decided it's time. Well, thank you so much, Christie, for finally talking to me about Real Housewives. I've been waiting for this maybe my entire 15 years, 16 years of fandom, so I'm really excited to hang out and talk about this.
Christie Ruggieri:
Yeah. Melinda, thank you so much for having me. This was awesome.
Melinda Lewis:
Pop, the Question was researched and hosted by Dr. Melinda Lewis. Our theme music and episodes are produced by Brian Kantorek with additional audio production by Noah Levine. All of this was done under the directorship of Erica Levi Zelinger, the deanship of Dr. Paula Marantz Cohen, and the Pennoni Honors College at Drexel University.
(Singing)